what is ruby (was emphasis markers)

[duncdrum]

Import from main repo

see Images/26478854.jpg

Emphasis markers when interspersed with ruby are another special case. Special because of the markup headaches with frequent problems of overlap, not because this is a rare occurrence. Technically the markers belong to the rb text, but they appear as part of the ruby stream/line

Thee Guidelines should feature one of these complex examples to clarify how we suggest encoders deal with this:

• Should emphasis markers be encoded as ruby, use css via @style/@rend, … what about texts with both emphasis markers and ruby?
• Demonstrate that <gaiji> can appear both in <rb> and <rt>

see #2

Not too happy with that example, comments and suggestions welcome.

[knagasaki]

Import from main repo

see Images/26478854.jpg

Please write the absolute URL.

[duncdrum]

https://github.com/martindholmes/rubyForTEI/blob/main/Images/26478854.jpg

they're all in the images folder in this repo

[knagasaki]

https://github.com/martindholmes/rubyForTEI/blob/main/Images/26478854.jpg

Thank you very much!

they're all in the images folder in this repo

I hope each URL would be indicated as full path.

[knagasaki]

Import from main repo

see Images/26478854.jpg

Emphasis markers when interspersed with ruby are another special case. Special because of the markup headaches with frequent problems of overlap, not because this is a rare occurrence. Technically the markers belong to the rb text, but they appear as part of the ruby stream/line

Thee Guidelines should feature one of these complex examples to clarify how we suggest encoders deal with this:

• Should emphasis markers be encoded as ruby, use css via @style/@rend, … what about texts with both emphasis markers and ruby?

Ruby in HTML5 might be able to be utilized in various cases of appended small characters and marks as a layout function. However, semantically, ruby is different as we wrote in the original proposal. So, the emphasis marks should not be encoded by <ruby> but by <emph> or any appropriate element in TEI, but might be done by <ruby> in HTML5.

• Demonstrate that <gaiji> can appear both in <rb> and <rt>

<gaiji> must appear in both <rb> and <rt>
Should I give one or more examples of the markup?

see #2

Not too happy with that example, comments and suggestions welcome.

[duncdrum]

I already picked an example that includes <g> with this pull request, so i think that should be enough for the guidelines. I have thought about <emph> as an alternative way, but i don't see how that makes overlap any less likely to occur. Do you then agree that an example showing interspersed emphasis markers should be included in the guidelines?

https://github.com/martindholmes/rubyForTEI/blob/main/ruby_samples.xml

[martindholmes]

Before we make a decision on what should be included, we need to answer the basic questions about how we define/identify ruby (as opposed to other annotation types), and what the intention of this current sprint is. I don't think we have any chance of getting complex and exhaustive documentation into the Guidelines for this release. I would really like to get the basic use-cases covered and released before we go on to the complexities, but I think that's for Council to decide.

[knagasaki]

I already picked an example that includes <g> with this pull request, so i think that should be enough for the guidelines. I have thought about <emph> as an alternative way, but i don't see how that makes overlap any less likely to occur. Do you then agree that an example showing interspersed emphasis markers should be included in the guidelines?
https://github.com/martindholmes/rubyForTEI/blob/main/ruby_samples.xml

Thank you for consideration of the example.

Aside from inclusion of the example into the Guidelines, I wonder whether the IDS should be included directly in <g>. Anyway, the character can be represented as a character in CJK Unified ideograph with IVS like U+8A55 with U+E0101. If you would like to use <g>, you would use a <char> including the codepoints and refer to it. But it is too complex and too long to be included in the Guidelines for explanation of ruby, I think. And then, the relationship between the <rt>s and <rb>s in the example seems not to be pronunciation nor parallel text. Then, it should be encoded by note with appropriate attributes, not by <ruby> in TEI (but may be encoded in HTML5 for rendering). If you want to see a complex example, I know other materials of Japanese classics.

[martindholmes]

I like the CSS approach to encoding emphasis; that aligns with our current recommendations on writing modes too.

[knagasaki]

Before we make a decision on what should be included, we need to answer the basic questions about how we define/identify ruby (as opposed to other annotation types), and what the intention of this current sprint is. I don't think we have any chance of getting complex and exhaustive documentation into the Guidelines for this release. I would really like to get the basic use-cases covered and released before we go on to the complexities, but I think that's for Council to decide.

I think the examples which are described in the original proposal are enough for basic usage of tons of Japanese modern books, comics, subtitles of movies and other types of modern Japanese texts. While consideration of complex examples is fun and important for some users, I would like to brush up the proposed ones to put into the Guidelines, if possible. I would be glad if you would list what should we do for it.

[knagasaki]

Import from main repo

see Images/26478854.jpg

Emphasis markers when interspersed with ruby are another special case. Special because of the markup headaches with frequent problems of overlap, not because this is a rare occurrence. Technically the markers belong to the rb text, but they appear as part of the ruby stream/line

Thee Guidelines should feature one of these complex examples to clarify how we suggest encoders deal with this:

• Should emphasis markers be encoded as ruby, use css via @style/@rend, … what about texts with both emphasis markers and ruby?
• Demonstrate that <gaiji> can appear both in <rb> and <rt>

see #2

Not too happy with that example, comments and suggestions welcome.

I would suggest that we will form a specialized guidelines outside of the TEI P5 guidelines for the complex usages like some other TEI-related communities. It was an advice by some experienced TEIers. According to it, we are now voluntarily trying to make Japanese guidelines for East Asian materials so far: https://github.com/TEI-EAJ/jp_guidelines/wiki . As we don't have any budget for it, it is very slow. But we would like to extend it to other languages such as Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, English, and so on, if you and others would collaborate with us. Are you interested in that?

[sydb]

For the East Asian ignorant among us, could someone explain what an “emphasis marker” is?

[747]

@sydb Here what mentioned as "emphasis markers" are those highlighted punctuation marks in the given image.

The English Wikipedia also has a brief introduction about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphasis_point

It is, in form, each separate mark that is typically put on the center-right side of a character, but conceptually, highlighting of important spans of text, only embodied discretely. In this sense it functionally resembles Sperrsatz or such practices.

Though emphasis markers are sometimes put by the author, they are traditionally more often done by the reader (for their own sake) or the reviewer before publishing. There is no standardized shape of emphasis markers, so they often take different appearances in the same text, and look same with other punctuations, even ambiguous on the layout (which is the case seen in the image; a clause delimiter interrupts a continuous emphasis span).

[duncdrum]

According to it, we are now voluntarily trying to make Japanese guidelines for East Asian materials so far: https://github.com/TEI-EAJ/jp_guidelines/wiki . As we don't have any budget for it, it is very slow. But we would like to extend it to other languages such as Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, English, and so on, if you and others would collaborate with us. Are you interested in that?

@knagasaki I have offered my help repeatedly, that is still the case. I thought, however, that this is what we are doing here already? @martindholmes the current sprint started November 02/2020, these are all still my original issues, as for budget and timetable s.a., I was also unaware of the release schedule timing.

Then, it should be encoded by note with appropriate attributes, not by in TEI (but may be encoded in HTML5 for rendering). If you want to see a complex example, I know other materials of Japanese classics.

This is crucial, if ruby in TEI are to be used only in some places and not in others where they would be expected to be used in html5 or by encoders of other East Asian documents, then that needs to be documented in the Guidelines with an example and reason. If you have a Japanese example, of where html5 would use ruby but TEI should use note that would be great, alternatively the example I provided should do as well. I happen to disagree that the example above should not be encoded via ruby.

Anyway, the character can be represented as a character in CJK Unified ideograph with IVS like U+8A55 with U+E0101.

Yes for demonstration purposes I picked a sequence that contains such a character, the use of IDS inside <g> is mentioned in the Guidelines (I wrote that section) so for demo purposes it should suffice. We can of course add a cross-reference to the section in the prose.

@sydb there is a link to the CSS definitions in the xml, but @747 has covered most of it thank you.

There is no standardized shape of emphasis markers, so they often take different appearances in the same text, and look same with other punctuations,

I wasn't going to point out the mix-n-match of regular punctuation with emphasis markers quite yet, but this is why documents containing both ruby and emphasis markers are important to cover imv, they are by no means a rare occurrence. I would contest the non-standardization of forms, these are very limited and per document consistent. But there are no universal rules governing the use of emphasis markers for East Asian documents across languages and periods .

[knagasaki]

According to it, we are now voluntarily trying to make Japanese guidelines for East Asian materials so far: https://github.com/TEI-EAJ/jp_guidelines/wiki . As we don't have any budget for it, it is very slow. But we would like to extend it to other languages such as Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, English, and so on, if you and others would collaborate with us. Are you interested in that?

@knagasaki I have offered my help repeatedly, that is still the case. I thought, however, that this is what we are doing here already? @martindholmes the current sprint started November 02/2020, these are all still my original issues, as for budget and timetable s.a., I was also unaware of the release schedule timing.

Thank you for your repeated offers. We're welcome to involve your activities on our Github repositories. And then, I'm very interested in the budget, if possible. Our activities have been conducted by free...

[knagasaki]

Then, it should be encoded by note with appropriate attributes, not by in TEI (but may be encoded in HTML5 for rendering). If you want to see a complex example, I know other materials of Japanese classics.

This is crucial, if ruby in TEI are to be used only in some places and not in others where they would be expected to be used in html5 or by encoders of other East Asian documents, then that needs to be documented in the Guidelines with an example and reason. If you have a Japanese example, of where html5 would use ruby but TEI should use note that would be great, alternatively the example I provided should do as well.

The definition of ruby in the original proposal can be summarized as a type of interlinear glosses which represents pronunciation of the targeted text and can be regarded as a parallel text.

I would like to quote an example from the image below:
https://www.iiif.ku-orcas.kansai-u.ac.jp/iiif/2/210464810%252F0057.tif/1050,100,250,1100/488,/0/default.jpg

in a part of the following image:
https://www.iiif.ku-orcas.kansai-u.ac.jp/iiif/2/210464810%252F0057.tif/full/2000,/0/default.jpg

The encoded text is below:
(Unfortunately, I couldn't find an example including <g> so far.)

         <p type="長歌" xml:id="manyo0131">
            <lb/><ruby xml:id="seg00007">
               <rb xml:id="seg00008">
                  <note place="right" resp="#定家" subtype="摘句" targetEnd="#note0175e" type="合点" xml:id="note00175">〽石見乃海つのヽうらわ</note>
                  石見乃海角乃浦廻乎浦無等人社見良目瀉<note place="right" resp="#定家" type="異文" targetEnd="#note00176e">無</note>无
                  <anchor type="noteEnd" xml:id="note00176e"/>等 <anchor type="noteEnd" xml:id="note0175e"/><note resp="#万葉集" type="割書" xml:id="note00177">一云礒
                     <milestone unit="wbr" />无登</note>
               </rb>
               <rt rend="left" xml:id="seg00009">イハミノウミツノヽウラハ
                  <note place="right" resp="#定家" type="異訓" xml:id="note00178">
                     ヲ
                  </note>
                  ニ
                  <anchor type="noteEnd"/>
                  ウラナシトヒトコソミラメカタナシト
               </rt>
            </ruby>
            <lb/>
            <ruby xml:id="seg00010">
               <rb xml:id="seg00011">
                  人社見良目能咲八師浦者無友縦畫屋師滷者
                  <note resp="#万葉集" type="割書" xml:id="note00179">一云礒者</note>
                  無勒
               </rb>
               <rt rend="left" xml:id="seg00012">
                  ヒトコソミラメヨシヱヤシウラハナクトモヨシヱヤシシカタハナクトモ
               </rt>
            </ruby>
         </p>

Most of the annotations are marked up by <note> because they can not be regarded as ruby in Japanese tradition but as other types of annotation. While there are many types of annotations in East Asian ancient documents, I think it is better to encode most of them via <note>. As <ruby> often occurs in tons of modern Japanese texts with apparent functions, I think it is better to make it an independent element.